Shred Sisters: Understanding Bipolar Disorder through Literature and Lived Experience
The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with a qualified health care professional for any health concerns. Take care of yourself out there. Welcome to Unraveling, a podcast that sees the world through the lens of mental health. I'm Curt White, a social worker and psychotherapist.
Mary:And I'm Mary Wilson, a journalist.
Kurt:And today, Mary, we have our first episode of our second year of being able to talk to some authors who came to the Brattleboro Literary Festival back in October 2025, and I'm very excited about this.
Mary:Oh, me too. It's always such a pleasure to welcome some of these really big names, big authors to our small town of Brattleboro, and
Betsy:it was
Mary:a beautiful day. The fall colors were glowing all around us, and we got a chance to talk to two special authors, one of whom you'll hear from today, Betsy Lerner, and how she writes and talks about mental health, and especially when it comes to family dynamics.
Kurt:Yes, absolutely. I think that people might say, well, are you this is a mental health podcast, but why are you talking to authors? But I really think that poets and authors and creative people are trying to talk about how are we made up? What's inside of us? What's inside the human psyche and soul?
Kurt:You know, even words like psychology, they have psyche embedded in it. As past guest Justin Hecht pointed out, you know, that there's a sort of connection between our creative potential and our creative energies, and the ways that we struggle. So I think that we're sort of kindred spirits. And what do creative people have to say about mental health topics, especially when they have their own personal experience of doing that as well as experience as a thoughtful creative person?
Mary:That's right. Betsy Lerner is a novelist, and Shred Sisters is actually her first novel. But she mentions that it's a bit of blending fact and fiction. It is a total work of fiction, but there are autobiographical elements to this novel and talking about mental health.
Kurt:It reads so convincingly. You could almost sort of imagine that you're just reading a memoir or something It like really seems like you've dropped right into somebody else's narrative of their own developmental period of growing up from a child into an adult, in a very complicated family.
Mary:That's right. And I really enjoyed reading her book, I was so lucky to be able to sit down with Betsy after she did a reading at Literary Fest. We found a little room in the church that we were in, and we got to have this great conversation. Betsy Lerner is the author of the popular advice book to writers, The Forest for the Trees, and the memoirs Food and Loathing and The Bridge Ladies. She received an MFA from Columbia University in poetry.
Mary:She's been a publishing professional for more than thirty years and is a literary agent as well as an author.
Kurt:Let's head to the Center Congregational Church in Downtown Brattleboro and have a listen together.
Mary:Betsy Lerner, thank you so much for joining me on Unraveling.
Betsy:Thank you for having me.
Mary:I can't wait to dive into your newest book, Shred Sisters, and also just talk about your life and how writing has been such an impact on your life. Let's start with where you got your start with writing.
Betsy:I started writing as a child. I started writing diaries after I read diary of a young girl, Anne Frank's diary, in which she says, you know, dear Kitty, I hope I can confide everything in you that I can't tell anyone else was basically what she said. And I thought I have so many things, secret feelings that I need to confide, and I started to, write a diary. So really as a child, all throughout my twenties and, started writing poetry then as well.
Mary:And you didn't share this with anyone. Right?
Betsy:Yeah. I think I was hiding a lot of parts of myself from my family. I always felt a little different and somewhat alone in my own family. So I I think the diary was really where I parked a lot of my feelings and, where I vented quite a lot. And I think overall, the project of keeping a diary is just figuring oneself out.
Mary:And there's almost, two selves to you. Right? You're looking at it through the lens of you now, and you almost find you truly were a different person then when you look back at those words? And why did you change? Why have you changed and evolved so much?
Betsy:Well, in many ways, I'm the same girl. I can't believe that I have so many of the same struggles and feelings. The difference is that I got a lot of therapy, I worked through a lot of these things, You know, intimacy was a huge problem for me, and I did eventually get married, and I never wanted children. I was terrified to actually pass on my bipolar illness, and, I had a child, and I I just was able, with a lot of help, to push through so many fears and issues, and to actually just get a handle on my mood swings and finally find the right medication and all. So, yes, I've evolved in a million ways, but I so connect with that girl.
Betsy:Definitely still a part of me.
Mary:Yeah. At what point did you get help with therapy, and how did you see the writing change from sort of the before and after?
Betsy:I was first diagnosed and medicated when I was 15. My mother always said, you went to bed a happy child, and you woke up miserable, and it never abated. And she always acted I I used to think, do you think I'm a changeling? You know, it was it was a kinda crazy way to put it. Of course, it was happening gradually, but it must have felt like all of a sudden.
Betsy:And I had been an a student, and now I'm reeking of pot smoke everywhere I go. I'm dressing in all black. I bought tinted glasses so I could look like my hero at the time, Janice Joplin. I'm listening to Patty Smith twenty four hours a day, and I was completely ambushed, and I hated the doctor. My parents brought me to a psychiatrist I didn't know we were going to, and I was extremely angry.
Betsy:I very quickly, within at least a month or two, hated how the medication made me feel. I started flushing it down the toilet, not telling anyone, and that started really a fifteen year journey of trying to manage my mood swings on my own, occasionally really falling apart, going to a doctor, getting, again, medication that wasn't the right medication. And all that time I was writing in my diaries and I was writing poetry, but it was when I finally, at 30, found the right doctor, right medication, and became stable that I really was able to write cohesively and coherently, and I think a lot of people think about poetry and madness, and one of my heroes, Robert Lowell, said that, you know, he always thought he was writing brilliantly when he was manic, but it was always a mess, and that was was when he was stable that he was actually able to produce his best work. And I think that's true for most artists, actually.
Mary:Yeah. And that sort of brings us, to your book, Shred Sisters, one of your books. This is the latest. And one of the main characters, Olivia or Ollie is her nickname, struggles with similar mental health challenges that you faced. Right?
Mary:And you were able to write her character from a place of that lived experience.
Betsy:Definitely. But I was more a very classic cycler. I was always elevated in the spring and summer and depressed in the winters and fall. I didn't figure any of that out for for quite a long time. Ollie is hypomanic.
Betsy:She's mostly elevated, and she is also in many ways not like me at all. She's a con artist. She's brash. She's hypersexual. She's unwilling to look at herself in any manner, shape, or form.
Betsy:I was very introspective, and I was always trying to get well. Ollie does not want to be well. She does not wanna be medicated. I I didn't wanna be medicated, but when I finally found the right doctor who knew how to work with me, I mean, I don't kiss my vial of pills every day, but I could because I am so grateful that Wow. I found what worked for me, and I've been stable for thirty five years.
Betsy:In the novel, Ollie does get stable when she has her baby, and that is actually quite an autobiographical detail. Oh, wow. It was when I had my child at at 30 that I went back to this doctor who I knew was probably right for me, and I said, what do I do? You know? And he said, you will have a cataclysmic postpartum if you don't go on your medication and stay on it.
Betsy:Meaning you don't breastfeed because you can't on the medication, and I sort of committed to myself and to my baby that I was not going to stay on that rollercoaster anymore, and I'm fortunate that my doctor kept working with me to this day, actually, thirty five years later. He's 84 years old, and I'm, you know, I'm just deeply grateful for that.
Mary:Yeah. And the Ollie character is sort of dueling constantly with the younger sister, Amy, and the book is told from Amy's perspective, and Amy is the narrative, and that is the dutiful daughter. And they have this sibling rivalry, which is all too familiar for as I have three sisters myself. So Wow.
Betsy:What number are you?
Mary:I'm one of the middle ones.
Betsy:Okay.
Mary:Yes. Number three. So, yes, definitely a lot of familiar tales coming to mind. Although you could tell, you know, after some of the first few chapters, that things were a little beyond that classic sibling rivalry. Did you sort of want to weave that in as, you know, it could be normal?
Mary:And I know the dad in the novel was sort of saying, oh, it's just, you know, how she is, and there's nothing wrong with her. A bit in denial.
Betsy:Yeah. The dad's completely in denial, and the mother is completely resentful that this child is, disrupting what she wanted to have of she wanted a normal family. And, I mean, everybody wants to have I would rather call it a healthy family. I don't know what normal is, but the mother is very, very distressed by the daughter's, inability to, you know, clean the clear the dishes. You know?
Betsy:Ollie's so rebellious. And, just came naturally for me to tell it from Amy's point of view because over the years in having my daughter, I really was able to get some perspective on how my behavior impacted my family. I still remember I went to NYU standing on a street corner in the middle of the night crying and hysterical. Telephone quarters, you know, back then, calling my parents and saying, I can't take another step. I don't know what to do.
Betsy:They're in Connecticut. So I'm completely freaking them out. And all I thought was they they don't know how to help me. They can't help me. I'm angry at them, yet I'm calling them.
Betsy:I have no one else to call. And when all that was happening, I had no idea how that could be impacting my parents. I was completely in my own narcissism and, crisis. Then when you have a child and that wasn't happening, and I realized, oh my gosh, what if my daughter had been like me and subjected me to those, you know, middle of the night calls and being in my room for days uncommunicative, not showering, wearing all black. She was just a happy person who liked to dress in bright clothing and join things and sing and all these things that I didn't do.
Betsy:And I thought, oh, I now see what that impact was on my family, and I now have tremendous compassion for my parents. What were they supposed to do? The way I wrote the book just comes out of forty years of perspective of my own lived experience. I've read everything I think there is on, bipolar illness from the confessional poets to the memoirists, the psychologists, and scientists. I mean, I just wanted to know as much as I could.
Betsy:And so a lot of that informed, Ollie's character.
Mary:And in the media, we can oftentimes see bipolar illness really sensationalized or seen as really scary, but that's not the case in this book. You wanted to make it as realistic as possible, right, and destigmatize it as well.
Betsy:Completely. One of my biggest pet peeves is when I see a bipolar character in a movie or in a book, and they are supposed to have superpowers because of being bipolar, and it is true that you can have when you're elevating, you do feel that you have superhuman powers, but you don't. And that is just this caricature of the illness. And I really was trying to show from the inside out what it is to struggle with this and in Ollie. And I think that there's still not nearly as much as when I was coming of age in the seventies, but there is still a lot of stigma, and there's still a lot of struggle.
Betsy:The medications aren't perfect. We haven't come far enough, nearly far enough. And so, actually at a lot of my readings, I get many people who come up to me and tell me that their son or their daughter or their spouse is bipolar, and their eyes fill with tears because they don't feel they can talk about it as much as they really need to. My parents, my mother was very ashamed. My father was ashamed.
Betsy:They did not want any of that to be happening. They did not want me to be in a hospital. And I just really feel it's sort of a personal mission to destigmatize it and sweep it out from under the carpet. You know?
Mary:Yeah. In the novel, the family refers to the psychiatric hospital as just the place, and they're going to the place. And so I assume that was your way of of saying how just how shameful it was for the family to have a daughter in a hospital like that.
Betsy:Yes. I mean, if the mother could have pretended that her daughter was, you know, taking a semester abroad, She would've, you know, preferred that. Yeah. And that's a very autobiographical detail. I was hospitalized for six months, and my parents had to come every week for family therapy.
Betsy:And my dad had to give up his golf game, and my mother had to deal with her shame, and it was horrible. It was horrible. What is your view sort of
Mary:on psychiatric hospitals now, and what was your experience in one?
Betsy:Well, now I believe if you don't have insurance, you really can't even go, and they'll probably kick you out in a few days or a week. So where I went, New York State Psychiatric, many people stayed for a couple of years. And when I got in there and I saw that, I said, no way. And I was one of the most motivated patients in therapy that you've ever seen in your I really did not wanna be a chronic patient. I saw that that was happening to people, and thank goodness I just had enough wherewithal to push through and be a really good you know, go see my doctor every day, be in group therapy, being oh, we had every kind of therapy under the sun, but yet they did not find the right medication for me when I was in there.
Betsy:And sure enough, I got out, I think in the summer, and come the fall, I started spiraling again. So the hospital was the worst time in my life, but sometimes they know the lowest point in your life is also the springboard for the most important changes that you make. So I still struggled for another three or more years before I found my doctor.
Mary:Wow. Do you ever wish that you had known earlier and what a difference that would make? Or is that sort of in the rearview mirror and, you know, you're happy with where you're at and how you've moved forward all these years later?
Betsy:I could answer that question nine different ways. Honestly, when I was 15, I was diagnosed with bipolar illness, and I was put on too much medication. I wish then that my parents did not ambush me, and I wish that the doctor really explained what was going on. I wish he had seen that the medication was too strong and maybe cut it in half, and, you know, maybe I would have stabilized in my teens. And it was only later that I found out that my uncle was bipolar, that my mother was a major depressive, that it was all in our my grandmother and my great aunt had psychotic episodes.
Betsy:So it was all in our family, and no one ever told me. And these things run-in families. So when families try to act like there's only this one person, it's generally not even true.
Mary:Was it a relief to learn about the fact that it had run-in your family?
Betsy:I was angry for a long time that that information was withheld from me. And again, it took many years to, really forgive my parents for with they withheld that information in the hospital in family therapy. Didn't come out until much later. So I was very distressed about that. I think for fifteen years, I struggled much more than maybe I needed to.
Betsy:That said, I'm proud of who I am, and it's part of my story. I feel good that I've helped a lot of people get into therapy. It's you know, all the kids on TikTok, I have a very big following of people in their twenties ask me what they should do. And I say, number one, prioritize your mental health. Number two, keep a diary.
Betsy:And, you know, over 2,000,000 kids have seen that message. Yeah. So that makes me really proud and really happy. Yeah.
Mary:Have you talked to young people who have started writing because of that advice?
Betsy:Lots of them tell me they have started keeping a diary. So, yeah, that also makes me so happy. Because you've gotta you know, you do have to put the devices down and write with your hand and a pen and paper and, you know, see people in person and connect and connect, and so but, yeah, I I love it when they say they started or they started again because of my entries, or that they wanna look back at the end of their life and have a record, you know, of what they've what they've done. So, yeah, I love that.
Mary:That's great. What does writing do? Why is it so helpful? What is it about, you know, the tactile paper and the pencil?
Betsy:That's a really great question. I don't exactly know, but it's physical, and it's tactile, and it's slower usually than typing for most people. So it sort of maybe slows you down a bit. It feels more personal. I mean, I love my computer, but it's a machine.
Betsy:You know? And I just think there's something so much more human about a diary. Opening a book, closing a book, you don't need to recharge it. You don't need to charge it. Your handwriting is so personal and so beautiful, and it's a stamp of who you are.
Betsy:A lot of the kids actually comment on my handwriting and my diary entries on TikTok. And I modeled my handwriting after my mother's. My mother beautiful loops and beautiful handwriting, and I I modeled mine after her. So there's that too. You know?
Betsy:Handwriting is extraordinary.
Mary:Yeah. We don't wanna lose that. I can see that so clearly in my mind, like my mom signing the checks or leaving the little Post it notes on the fridge of to do lists mostly. But, yeah, you can see that so vividly in your mind.
Betsy:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's beautiful.
Mary:Yeah. In this book, Shred Sisters, halfway through, I was thinking it was really a real story because I was just so invested in the characters. What did you find it was like to kind of blend the fiction and fact because some of it is based on your life? What was that like blending the two?
Betsy:I really felt that I was making up a story. I'm not Amy, not a scientist. I'm also Amy had no friends. I had a lot of friends. I was a terrific chameleon.
Betsy:I could befriend anyone. Mhmm. Amy is lonely, and, she is tyrannized by her older sister, and I was a bit tyrannized by my older sister. But, my parents didn't divorce. I didn't have a one year marriage.
Betsy:I was not betrayed by my best friend. All of the story is really made up. What's really autobiographical are the feelings and the emotions and my take on things. It's the way I see the world, the way I see mental illness, the way I see sibling relationships, family relationships. And I see a lot of to me, comedy and tragedy are, you know, opposite sides of the same coin.
Betsy:So I there's a lot of tragedy, but I also I do like to make people laugh.
Mary:And so And there's pieces of you in in both the sisters, it
Betsy:sounds parents.
Mary:And the parents. Yeah. And The friends. Friends, for sure. Yeah.
Betsy:Yeah. And some of them are based on things, sort of composites of certain people in my life. There's a character who, you know, dies of an overdose in the book, and my best friend took his life about six months before I started writing the book. Of course, that is I was channeling or pro you know, I don't like the word processing, but I was that was filtering through my emotional life. And I think that that came out in that character, which is not a one for one of my friend at all, but it emotionally, for me, I was touching that story.
Mary:And it sounds like there were aspects of sibling rivalry growing up. Can you tell me a bit about that?
Betsy:Well, we were actually three sisters, six, four, and two. I was the four year old, and the two year old died. And that event completely changed our family. And my older sister really fused with my mother, and I really fused with my dad. And my parents put all the pictures of the baby away, and we never spoke of her.
Betsy:And so as this very sensitive little child, I knew something was wrong, but I never knew what, and my parents would never speak of it. I think that intensified the rivalry between us because we were so aligned with each of our parents, and then also we had very different talents, abilities, personalities. You know, if I always would say, you know, if we met in college or something, would have never been friends, you know, and my mother was desperate for us to be friends. Always saying, well, when you're out of out of high school, you'll be friends. When you're out of college, you'll be friends.
Betsy:When you get married, you'll be friends. And we we just couldn't be friends. We were we were rivals, and we didn't get each other, and we didn't share the same values or ideas. She put me down for being a poet. I put her down for being a wife and mother.
Betsy:You know, we just were really at each other's throats. It went on too long.
Mary:Do you think, that's part of just the societal thing of, like, everyone in your family should get along? You should be close. You should be best friends with your sibling. Where in reality, like you said, you you might be related, but maybe you don't have much in common. Maybe that's okay to not be the best of friends.
Betsy:Yeah. I and I think it makes it more even more painful because the expectation to be close is so great. We actually once went to therapy together because we were fighting so badly that we would not go both go home at the same time. And I think Thanksgiving was coming up, and now oh, I should mention my parents had another baby girl ten years later. And it was so confusing to her, you know, why my sisters what's what's going on?
Betsy:So my older sister and I went for a therapy session, a couple of sessions together, and what really came out of it was that she longed for me to look up to her as a big sister, and I longed for her to take care of me as a baby sister, and we weren't fulfilling those roles at all. But once this sort of therapist sort of put his finger on what was going on, and it was something so basic, so primal that we, you know, it was we started to we we worked on it. We we were able to with those tools, and he also told us, do not engage. Don't go there. Like, you don't need to keep doing that to each other.
Betsy:Just give yourself some distance. You know? It's okay not to be best friends. And don't talk about each other behind each other's backs to your mother because that was also something that was very toxic. And we stopped doing that, and that really helped too.
Betsy:Wow.
Mary:So you really worked on it then?
Betsy:Yes. We did. We worked on it.
Mary:What would you say to someone maybe who has a sibling who they're not getting along with or, maybe that sibling has mental health challenges?
Betsy:You know, if your sibling has mental health challenges, you can only do so much. And I do think it's okay to have some boundaries and to protect yourself, especially if this person is highly disruptive and just, you know, possibly dangerous, you know, to yourself or to your family. You need professional help to help that person. And, you know, the person with mental health issues can, you know, obviously be very draining, very disruptive, and you're not gonna fix them. You can lead them to water many times, and they might still throw their meds away.
Betsy:You know, it's very frustrating. You love them, but they're also taking all the oxygen out of the room. It's very difficult. I would say get your own help to learn how to deal with it. Help as much as you can, but, you know, understand that you're not going to solve their problems.
Betsy:It's complex. You need help. They need help. If you can find that, that's all you can do.
Mary:So focus on a bit of self preservation first.
Betsy:Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, with other illnesses, we don't blame the people. Right? But when you have let's say you're bipolar and you're very erratic or you're very, grandiose or whatever, it seems like it's your personality, not your illness.
Betsy:And it gets very confusing for people, right? Like, why can't they just X? But they can't. And it's hard to remain as empathic as you would towards somebody battling a physical illness. I mean, I'm one of the very lucky few, I think, who's been stable for thirty five years.
Betsy:Most people will have recurrences and etcetera. So it's also a long haul. I have a lot of empathy for family members now. And and my sister too, who you know, what was what was wrong with Betsy was a, you know, a term in our family. And I shut her out, and my parents didn't talk about it.
Betsy:And, you know, now we finally have talked about it.
Mary:Yeah. I know there was a focus in the book on kinda how to separate the illness from the person. Is that possible?
Betsy:It's really not easy because the illness impacts the person, you know, not even just when you're in a state of depression or of mania, it's part of who you are, I think, and, you know, if you had a limp, you would always have that limp, and it would maybe affect how people saw you or how you saw yourself, and it's a part of your life. So, I mean, hopefully the people around you really accept you and love you, but it's really not easy. I mean, when I have friends who are a lot of my friends and a lot of my authors struggle with mental illness. I will go to the ends of the earth to help somebody, but at a certain point, if they cannot help themself and I feel they are dragging me under, I take a big step back because I can't afford to go under. And
Mary:it's you think inside that person to finally decide or somehow realize that they do need the help.
Betsy:Yeah. They have to. They have to. I've introduced so many of my writers to my psychopharmacologist. So many of them are are now getting the right medication, and I have helped so many people get into therapy.
Betsy:And once you're doing that, I'll be your friend forever. But if you can't get there, I can't save you.
Mary:So moving forward with your work, I'm hoping for for more fiction from you because I know that was a little outside of your typical comfort zone. Right?
Betsy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on a new book, and I've set myself a different kind of challenge, and I'm having a blast writing it. I don't know if I'll get to the finish line.
Betsy:I don't know if it'll peter out. It's not a process that I'm enormously, confident about, but my rule is if I'm having fun, that's all that matters. Mhmm. And I love making shit up.
Mary:That's great. Words to live by. And I assume you're going to continue on social media and TikTok, and what do you see as your your future for that venue?
Betsy:Yeah. Well, you know, the diaries, I'm on 19, and they go up to 30. So I have a lot more material, and it'll either keep going or maybe it'll peter out. I don't really know. I have a fantasy of turning it into something written, like maybe a young adult novel or something like that, but maybe the the TikTok project is enough.
Betsy:I get a lot out of
Mary:that. Yeah.
Betsy:So
Mary:Would your younger self be surprised at where you are now and that those words that you were writing and thought would never see the light of day are now out on social media with millions of people looking at them?
Betsy:Shocking. Shocking. Yeah. A lot of people say, oh, don't you feel vulnerable? And how can you do that?
Betsy:And I would never share my diary. But it's almost like sharing about mental illness. And by the way, I just pluck parts of the diary. There's plenty in there that does not see the light of day. But all projects have their own life cycle, so I don't have any grand expectations of where it's going to take me.
Betsy:Just I love posting, and I love it when they comment and they say things that make me feel so good. So it's bit of a dopamine hit.
Mary:Yeah. That's great. Well, Betsy, thank you so much for doing this interview and for sharing your wonderful book with us.
Betsy:Oh, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Mary:And our thanks again to Betsy Lerner for that conversation. And Kurt has been listening along. Kurt, I know you also got to read her book, Shred Sisters. So what did you think?
Kurt:Oh, I so enjoyed it. I had quite a few thoughts about it and real deep resonance with lots of the parts of what she's talking about here. There's a truth of the world that she's expressing through the fiction of the book. Right? Mhmm.
Kurt:And if you say, well, what is that? Because in a way, it's a frequently unhappy, but not tragic tale. It's humorous. It's exploratory. It has to do with what did you how did you look at all of the obstacles that exist inside of us and in families to get from point a to point b, especially when there's some challenge, when something is not typical in a way?
Kurt:And what about you, Mary? How how did all of this land for you?
Mary:Yeah. It was really interesting hearing about sort of the arc of her mental health challenges and what she did to help herself and find what she needed in the moment. As a child, it was journaling, and then she had a difficult time with finding the right medicines and therapy. And then things happened in her life, like, having a child that really changed what she needed and how she sought out mental health help. And now she's looking back at those journal entries from many years ago and kind of seeing her life, through a different lens and also connecting with others and helping other people.
Mary:I really recommend, you go check out her TikTok page. It's at Betsy Lerner. She's actually gone viral for reading these small segments of, her diaries that are really resonating with young people, especially talking about loneliness and depression and how things do get better and offering so much hope for young people who might be struggling with those similar things.
Kurt:That's wonderful. And I really do hope people read the read this book also, Shred Sisters. It's really quite something hard to put down to get you'll find yourself deeply engrossed in it, think, as I was. And thank you again to the Brattleboro Literary Festival. The Brattleboro Retreat is so proud to be a sponsor of that event.
Kurt:I hope I hope that's a collaboration that continues for many years into the future. Special thanks also to Sandy Rouse and Elizabeth Catlin who were especially influential in connecting us with these authors. And next time, we will have another episode from another author, Peter Mendelsohn, whom we sat down with in my office back in October.
Mary:Looking forward to that conversation. Join us next time on Unraveling.
Kurt:Unraveling is brought to you by Brattleboro Retreat. Our producers at Charts and Leisure are Andrew Adkin, Hans Buteau, and Jason Oberholzer.
Mary:And you can find us on social media by searching Brattleboro Retreat. Brattleboro Retreat is committed to exploring diverse perspectives on mental health. While we invite hosts and guests to share their insights, the views expressed are their own and do not necessarily reflect the policies or positions of the hospital or its staff.
